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Florencia Gadea
10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 1, 2013 3:46 AM
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Florencia Gadea

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Hi Everyone,

How are you?

After 10 months developing Liferay plugins, I've decided to share my experience with you guys: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer

What do you think? emoticon

Regards,

Flor.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 2, 2013 6:02 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Add
11. Assume liferay forums members all all liferay.com employees being paid by liferay.com to answer users' questions. Complain about the quality and not answering your questions quickly.

12. Not reading forum guidelines are posting questions to any arbitrary forum.
Archana S
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 2, 2013 8:00 AM
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Archana S

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Well Said Hotoshi !! We are posting our queries to get clear our doubts if the Liferay staff is not answering then what is the use of this forum and for what they get paid for !! till now whichever thread i saw its almost all answered by you and the guy name David and some liferay experience people thats it !! this is my kind request to liferay staff answer our query to get clear our doubts !!
James Falkner
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 2, 2013 5:40 PM
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James Falkner

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Riya M S:
Well Said Hotoshi !! We are posting our queries to get clear our doubts if the Liferay staff is not answering then what is the use of this forum and for what they get paid for !! till now whichever thread i saw its almost all answered by you and the guy name David and some liferay experience people thats it !! this is my kind request to liferay staff answer our query to get clear our doubts !!



Huh? There are Liferay staffers on these forums answering questions all the time! There are a lot of posts that come through on any given day. What's awesome is that through our large and growing community, including Dave and Hitoshi, you get answers to many of your questions. That's what this forum is for. So with 350 employees (many of which have job functions outside of this forum), and 80k community members, yeah, most posts will be by non-LR staff. I personally try to answer when I have experience or the right answer, and I know many other Liferay staff do too, but we can't get to them all. Again, that's what our awesome community does such a good job at.
Archana S
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 2, 2013 10:26 PM
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Archana S

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Hi James,

This is what i am expecting from liferay staff !! so quick answer and by the way thanks for making my doubts clear !! emoticonemoticonemoticonemoticon
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 3, 2013 5:10 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Riya, you're not getting it wrong. This isn't a support forum like Microsoft support forum. Users who are there already paid Microsoft for their products.

I think the only people who are fully paid to participate to this forums are James and David?. Even Liferay staffs seems to be using their own time to post here.

I should add the following to the list:
13. Thinking liferay community forum is a product support forum.
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 4, 2013 5:37 AM
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David H Nebinger

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Hitoshi Ozawa:
I think the only people who are fully paid to participate to this forums are James and David?


Must be talking about some other David... emoticon

I'm here purely for personal benefit. The more organizations that are successful deploying Liferay, the better my job outlook (as a Liferay Architect/Developer) becomes...

So if I can help folks get over some simple issues, I see it as helping myself...
Ron J
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 4, 2013 6:49 AM
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Ron J

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David H Nebinger:
Hitoshi Ozawa:
I think the only people who are fully paid to participate to this forums are James and David?


Must be talking about some other David... emoticon

I'm here purely for personal benefit. The more organizations that are successful deploying Liferay, the better my job outlook (as a Liferay Architect/Developer) becomes...

So if I can help folks get over some simple issues, I see it as helping myself...



On any given search, you and Hitoshi respond to at least 90% of the threads I look at
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 4, 2013 7:22 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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That's because I'm here to create a market. As has been posted several time, one of the weakest point of liferay is support and quality. Documentation also used to be a problem but that's been fixed for English documentation. I think the quality of the CE version is improving with Juan's community version. I think the support is getting very well with support extending to outside this forums.

I sometimes see people complaining about this and that but liferay.com is not going to change. Just use what they have and fill in what's necessary. Don't stop trying to change other people - change what you can and move on.
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 4, 2013 7:32 AM
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David H Nebinger

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Ron J:
On any given search, you and Hitoshi respond to at least 90% of the threads I look at


Because we're a) experienced and b) enthusiasts. I know I don't always get things right (Hitoshi tends to catch me on these), but I think we're both here for the same reason (to build the market), although for slightly different reasons (Hitoshi sells services to that market whereas I'm more interested in being employed in that market).

Liferay's a great platform to build an environment from, but it does come w/ a pretty steep learning curve. Helping folks to overcome that curve is tough, and in the end we're just trying to help you do it.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 7:44 AM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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Hi, Florencia Gadea, let me rewrite your message as my opinion:

Hi Everyone,

How are you ?

After 24 months secret self-training, I've decided to share my experience with you guys: http://struts.apache.org/development/2.x/docs/portlet-plugin.html
I highly recommend Struts2 portlet plugin to everyone as a starting point of portlet development.

I started from Apache Struts2 portlet example http://struts.apache.org/release/2.3.x/docs/struts-2-portlet-tutorial.html to achieve my pet project: http://code.google.com/p/jasperrocks

Struts2 portlet plugin follows JSR286 standard, if you follows its examples, you can make one portlet to run Liferay, eXo, GateIn, Jetspeed, Pluto, uPortal.

With the basic knowledge of struts2 portlet, you will have more confidence of developing more advanced Liferay or other portals.

What do you think ?


Hi, James Falkner,

Just let me say thank you for your blog: http://www.liferay.com/web/james.falkner/blog/-/blogs/yet-another-liferay-json-service-example. My REST and JSON ideas of my pet project are coming from your Apache HttpComponents knowledges.

BTW, please help me to tell your CEO, I beg Bryan Cheung, not to fade out Struts (Reference: http://sourceforge.net/blog/open-source-business-liferay/)
A core developer of GateIn (your competitor) has trying his portlet framework to cross the line (running on GateIn and Liferay) http://juzuweb.org/#features
Struts, like a lightsaber, is an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. You may consider to make use of Struts to cross their lines more (a Liferay made portlet running on other portals).


Hi, Hitoshi Ozawa & David H Nebinger
I like reading your messages for years but I always keep silent here (I would like to pretend a ninja in Japanese movies - they always hide themselves)

Ching
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 4, 2013 2:16 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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BTW, please help me to tell your CEO, I beg Bryan Cheung, not to fade out Struts (Reference: sourceforge.net/blog/open-source-business-liferay/)


Should ask Brian Chan, Chief Software Architect for this. Bryan is mostly on the business side and seems to leave technical decisions to Brian and Jorge.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 4, 2013 7:24 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Must be talking about some other David...


Sorry, James must have been talking about some other David. emoticon
Anonymous
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 4, 2013 4:19 PM
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Anonymous

I'm a Liferay Employee, I subscribe in the forums in the areas that I have experience, for example 6.0 + Themes. If I can answer the question when it pops up in my email I will try to answer it or point the person to other information related to the question. I try to spend 25 - 30 mins answering forums per day.
Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 5:23 AM
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Florencia Gadea

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Hi Everyone,

Hitoshi, thanks for the suggestions, I agree with them too emoticon

It is true that Hitoshi and David do an amazing job, they have helped me many times.

One thing I don't like is that I have seen a lot of "unanswered" posts, so I think that Liferay staff should focus on answering those posts.

Regards,

Flor.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 4:53 AM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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Stuff !? Do you mean the word staff ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LVptO7o4L8&t=60s

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0458352/quotes?qt=qt0483799

Florencia Gadea:
Hi Everyone,

Hitoshi, thanks for the suggestions, I agree with them too emoticon

It is true that Hitoshi and David do an amazing job, they have helped me many times.

One thing I don't like is that I have seen a lot of "unanswered" posts, so I think that Liferay stuff should focus on answering those posts.

Regards,

Flor.
Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 5:30 AM
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Florencia Gadea

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Yes, I meant the word staff. Sorry spelling nazi emoticon
Jelmer Kuperus
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 5:18 AM
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Jelmer Kuperus

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11. Use the community edition and expect it to be "good enough"
12. Expect liferay api's will be stable and backwards compatible
13. Expect that if you file a bug it will be fixed in the next version
14. Expect that if you contribute a patch it will be included in the next version
15. Expect that anyone on the forum will have an answer to non trivial questions
Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 5:35 AM
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Florencia Gadea

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jelmer kuperus:

12. Expect liferay api's will be stable and backwards compatible


Well, I don't agree with this one, I think backwards compatibility should be expected (in basic stuff). At least, some classes or methods could be deprecated first and then eliminated.

Cheers,

Flor.
Jelmer Kuperus
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 6:49 AM
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Jelmer Kuperus

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ehhh duuhh...

I think you missed the point that like the points in your original post. These are all untrue and are sure ways to fail.
Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 6:22 AM
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Florencia Gadea

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jelmer kuperus:
ehhh duuhh...

I think you mist the point that like the points in your original post. These are all untrue and sure ways to fail.


Yes, you are right, but in my post I wrote about silly and obvious ways to fail, being the developer's fault in most cases. Like you can't expect to understand something if you don't read the documentation. But backwards compatibility should be expected.
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 6:32 AM
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David H Nebinger

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Florencia Gadea:
But backwards compatibility should be expected.


Then you are expecting your own failure.

Seriously, Liferay has nailed me time and again w/ the changes, many of them significant. For example, Liferay 4 was based on prototype.js, Liferay 5 on jQuery, and Liferay 6 on AUI. I have no idea what Liferay 7 will be built on, but there certainly was no 'backwards compatibility' baked into the later releases.

If you expect backwards compatibility, you are expecting your own failure.
Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 6:42 AM
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Florencia Gadea

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I agree, David, they have nailed me too. I'm not expecting it, I'm just saying it "should be". I have worked with many other frameworks that do have backwards compatibility, so it is not naive for a beginner to expect it. As I said to jelmer, I wrote about obvious ways to fail.

Anyway, I will add your suggestions to the article guys, because after all, they are ways to fail. Thanks!
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 12:18 PM
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David H Nebinger

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There's another one to add from this thread: http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/2013318

(x) Feel free to replace Liferay tables/entities with your own, especially if you don't understand the data model. It won't cause chaos or limit your ability to handle future upgrades, so have at it!
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 7:42 AM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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Wow, Jelmer Kuperus join this discussion.
There is four non-staff (not stuff) members I trace their messages: Juan Gonzalez P, Jelmer Kuperus, Hitoshi Ozawa, and David H Nebinger

Hey Jelmer Kuperus,
I like your comment about "Stockholm syndrome" last year. Your words of wisdoms free my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHlBqdFIr5Q
It drives me to make independent portlets.

David H Nebinger is right that Liferay has changed its game rules. But I don't mind any change of game rules. I have just wished Liferay improving our developers' lifeway easier.

Ching
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 12:37 PM
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Jack Bakker

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interesting enough initial premise to put in the negative ideas which have positive counterparts

haven't found this thread to be that useful though, like that ever sensational "liferay sucks" thread

are we building or breaking ; you choose
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 1:29 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Agree with Jack on this point. As Florencia mentioned, her initial points were on what liferay users shouldn't do and not about liferay software itself.

Don't take Jelmer's complaints too seriously because it's more like he's "married" to liferay. He's always complaining about it but it seems he can't live without it either - it's just like a husband complaining about his wife but not seriously thinking about divorce. emoticon
Jelmer Kuperus
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 1:41 PM
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Jelmer Kuperus

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Don't take Jelmer's complaints too seriously because it's more like he's "married" to liferay. He's always complaining about it but it seems he can't live without it either


No I got a divorce. I haven't done any Liferay development in over 6 months. Using Liferay was a very frustrating experience. At the end of the learning curve there's not pot of gold just disillusionment. I was "married" to liferay because I was forced to use it on a project i was stuck on
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 2:29 PM
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Jack Bakker

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I dev over Liferay, but also develop over other ; depends on match of need with appropriate solution

glad there are many options out there and people building things to improve ; for enterprise with many public and private facing needs, I like Liferay a lot
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 6, 2013 4:06 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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jelmer, if you got "divorced", why are you still here hanging around?

I think liferay.com isn't going to change because they're satisifed with the way they are now (they seems to be doing very good), and I think some of us are satisified with the situation we are in now too.

Also, there's now a patchers community at github. Instead of sending patches to liferay.com jira, just send a patch request to the patchers community at github. You can even create your own fork easily with you patches.

https://www.lcepatchers.org/

https://github.com/Liferay-Patchers-Community/
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 9:32 PM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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1. Red pill or blue pill ? you choose
Hi, Jack Bakker, you are funny. "There are only two things I can't stand in this world. Portals which are intolerant of other portals' cultures... and the Dutch."

2. Florencia Gadea is clever to build up the ten commandments out of here. These commandments help newbies understand Liferay and let Liferay staff (not stuff) to understand its users.
As Steve say: "We are not perfect, Portals are not perfect, We want to make our users happy" http://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Were-not-perfect.jpg
Are they building or breaking user relationships ? you choose.

3. Hitoshi Ozawa is right that "This isn't a support forum like Microsoft support forum. Users who are there already paid Microsoft for their products."
I don't expect any help of public forum, because I don't pay. All I wanna have some fun here only.

4. It is not easy being a small business, it is not easy to run a 350 staff (not stuff) company: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vZdOPjMxGcY
I know there is many JEDI masters inside Liferay. They are busy to lead their teams to struggle for survival of the Portal Wars
Please understand that they don't have much time to take care of free public forum.
Let me advertise Liferay formal training http://www.liferay.com/services/training. Paying school fee does not only help the company, but also help learners themselves to handle Liferay quicker. .


Jack Bakker:
interesting enough initial premise to put in the negative ideas which have positive counterparts

haven't found this thread to be that useful though, like that ever sensational "liferay sucks" thread

are we building or breaking ; you choose
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 6, 2013 8:45 AM
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Jack Bakker

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1. while I might say I take both pills, I reject the premise and take neither

2. yes I think it is great when people contribute ; Florencia's intent was for such

3. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy

4. choosing something real to contribute will bring success, as for what is real, see #1 above
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 14, 2013 4:12 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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4. It is not easy being a small business, it is not easy to run a 350 staff (not stuff) company: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vZdOPjMxGcY
I know there is many JEDI masters inside Liferay. They are busy to lead their teams to struggle for survival of the Portal Wars
Please understand that they don't have much time to take care of free public forum.


Now this makes it sound like people posting to this forum have lot of free time left over. I can assure you that this is not true. I'm definitely sure about some people at liferay with more time then we do - just sitting waiting for somebody to call them. I have 2 on-going projects, 3 pre-sales, writing articles for a online magazine, creating localized version of liferay and portlets, writing a research paper, doing presentations, involved in other OSS projects, etc...

BTW, there's no more "JEDI masters". The names have been changed.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 14, 2013 10:09 PM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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Hitoshi Ozawa,

1. I have not worked with any Liferay project since 2010. You are right that its game rules have changed "No more youngling, padawan, master at forum".

2. It is embarrasing for me to be exposed by you. To be honest, I wish to make money from Liferay. That's why I try to please Liferay insiders.

3. You are more than a developer. You see through the teams and you dare say their operations. Liferay should pay you consulting fees. emoticon

4. Let me continue to defend insiders (cause they may be my future benefit$)
As you say "just sitting waiting for somebody to call them. I have 2 on-going projects, 3 pre-sales, writing articles for a online magazine, creating localized version of liferay and portlets, writing a research paper, doing presentations, involved in other OSS projects, etc..."
All of them is division of labour. They are running a company, not just a software. Even though somebody just sitting, perhaps he is thinking of a big plan.

emoticon

Ching
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 1:11 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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They are running a company, not just a software. Even though somebody just sitting, perhaps he is thinking of a big plan.


You're contracting yourself. A company need to execute and not just plan - they have to meet a goal within a determined time period because employees, taxes, utility bills need to be paid. I'm doing all these because I work for a company, and we do have a plan that needs to be executed to get expected results. Just sitting and planning something big is a sure sign of a company that's going to fail. Users' aren't that stupid to associate with a company that's all talks and no action - nobody likes to be associated with a loser.

Maybe, this is just a cultural difference. As is written in an article below in "Victim identity" section, the Japanese society don't take failure lightly. An organization that not capable of showing any result within 3 months is identified as a "failure", and we don't associate with them - never. Think while doing - I think this is the fundamental rule of a company. I think founders of Liferay.com has been doing this, but I'm getting a little bit worried because I'm beginning to see "that's not my responsibility" altitutude. I think many Japanese people were attracted to Liferay after seeing Bryant going through liferay source code when asked a question when he first gave a talk here. If he'd said that he's a president of a company and didn't know or had time to be concerned about a program, most of the people would have lost interest.

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/japan.html

2. It is embarrasing for me to be exposed by you. To be honest, I wish to make money from Liferay. That's why I try to please Liferay insiders.


Liferay.com is still a small company with unforeseen future. Trying to please insiders instead of trying to get them to satisfy users is really doing the company more harm. I think Gartner report just summerized what I've been saying.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 7:22 AM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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Hitoshi Ozawa,

Hitoshi Ozawa:
You're contracting yourself.

1. Do you mean "You're contradicting yourself" ?

2. You know, I've learned something today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3sX3aD6GSM
I grew in British colony, Hong Kong. I don't realize my humour style messages to get such a serious reply. There is much food for thought in your message. I am really appreciated.

Jack Bakker should understand my previous self-deprecating messages. (because Dutch humor is much more unDutchable than British humour).

3. Hitoshi Ozawa, I saw you writing thousands messages to support here and gave many strict advices to Liferay. You are doing all this for a better Liferay and for its own good.
I am different from you. Now I am a WAR profiteer who make portlet.wars to watch their portal wars. I have just pleased every party: insiders, outsiders, customers and business partners, to get my jobs done, to get money from portals.

4. As an outsider, you unleash values of Liferay very well. However I must continue to defend the insiders. I knew many of them working so hard.

And I don't understand and I don't agree the following sentence:
"There is more value outside of the company being waited to be unleashed than there is inside"
Reference: http://www.theserverside.com/news/2240167505/Liferay-CEO-says-people-are-the-companys-strength


Ching
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 8:31 AM
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Jack Bakker

Rank: Liferay Master

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There is plenty of room for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 9:02 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 7990

Join Date: March 23, 2010

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1. Do you mean "You're contradicting yourself" ?


Right. emoticon
I have to get a research paper out today on agile development so I'm really deprived of sleep.

I knew many of them working so hard.


No doubt about that. Liferay is an excellent software because of all who have worked on it. I won't be so demanding if I thought I was talking to a wall. emoticon
I'm trying to keep my demands just so that I'll be able to get them without breaking social ties.

There is more value outside of the company being waited to be unleashed than there is inside


I think Brian Chan expressed this pretty well when he explained in one of the video why he made Liferay open source. If a company is going to do everything inside, there's no reason to make it open source and Liferay.com will likely lose because competitors such as IBM and MS are all very large companies with many more programmers and other people assigned to a developing and selling a product. David wasn't able to defeat goliath by fighting with armour and shield. If Liferay is going to survive in the portal market, it has to have a different development and marketing tactic. Just giving your "family" armour and shield and telling them to go fight is leading them to slaughter.

I think the quote actually means people shouldn't be classified as being "inside" or being "outside" but more of as those who can actually offers tangible results to those who don't.

For example, there's already many sns and cms software in Japan at a very reasonable price and very high quality. There'll be no benefit of liferay if it wasn't open source. Open source to me is just a development and marketing scheme where each member benefits from using "outside" resources. Put 20% in and get 80% back. To Liferay.com, everybody not with the company is "outside" but to me, Liferay.com and people like Jack, David, and Juan are all "outside".

If you're really thinking about liferay's survival, it'll probably be better trying to please more parties to join instead just pleasing current internal parties. Liferay needs to "grow", not retain the current status.

You are doing all this for a better Liferay and for its own good.


Well, for my own good. I need Liferay.com to succeed for me to succeed. I'm just an ordinary person and not a saint. emoticon
I think there are other members here in a similar position.

BTW, some users have noted how I reply to a post has changed since the time I started. I'm no longer giving direct answers too much. This is because users who finds a direct answer would be able to finish his/her task but won't be learning liferay. We really need more people who know liferay over people who's just using liferay to finish an assigned task because they would more tend to become part of the community.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 18, 2013 9:32 AM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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Jack Bakker:
There is plenty of room for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes.


http://www.political-humor.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/gods-creatures.jpg
Ha, ha, Jack Bakker, I am hungry now, where is the restaurant ?


Hitoshi Ozawa,
I am busy at this moment, let me digest your messages and reply to you later.

By the way, I post an oldies oldies but goodies to every insiders and outsiders, "Anyone can code"
http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/22752693

Ching
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 18, 2013 6:24 PM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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To Florencia Gadea and all plugin developers,

I must thanks Jelmer Kuperus for his words of wisdoms "Stockholm syndrome". Just two words inspire me to seek my way to make independent portlets

I highly recommend an open source Apache Struts2 http://struts.apache.org (Maybe Spring MVC can do the same generic portlets but I don't know it.)

I figure out my way to request Liferay to improve its products: Just compare, no complain
I prove its problem by struts2 portlet to compare with its competitors
http://code.google.com/p/jasperrocks/wiki/Problems#Liferay

For viewpoint of customers, this is the advantages if portal vendors following JSR286 standard:
1. Outside developers will be happy for avoiding SDK lock-in provided by vendors.
2. Customers will be happy for avoiding vendor lock-in.
3. We shall be happy to watch portal vendors playing a fair game.

Hitoshi Ozawa is demanding for Liferay its own good because it is a portals war.

Now I am busy with the comparison of the new beta eXo Platform 4.0 with Liferay 6.20
Talk to Hitoshi Ozawa later.

Ching
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 18, 2013 7:16 PM
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David H Nebinger

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Ching Ice-creaming:
For viewpoint of customers, this is the advantages if portal vendors following JSR286 standard:
1. Outside developers will be happy for avoiding SDK lock-in provided by vendors.
2. Customers will be happy for avoiding vendor lock-in.
3. We shall be happy to watch portal vendors playing a fair game.


And these are the disadvantages:

1. Re-inventing the wheel. Since you're just playing to the 286 standard, you cannot take advantage of any Liferay services. As such, you'll need to re-invent the wheel to provide your own services which mimic what Liferay provides.

2. 286 does not provide a method for sharing code w/ portlets, such as Liferay's Service Builder. So all of your data-related portlets must be tightly coupled (shipped in one war file) or else you sacrifice runtime resources (duplicated jars loaded in separate wars, multiple database connections, data caching issues, etc.).

3. Although 286 works, it is not always the optimal solution. For example, loading js and css via Liferay's liferay-portlet.xml, the portal can better optimize the loaded resources, optimizations that are not available to straight 286 portlets.

4. Since you're not building off of the SDK, you cannot directly access Liferay entities such as User, Group, etc.

5. The Liferay SDK is used for more than building portlets. The SDK is the only way to develop themes, hooks, layouts, etc. All Liferay deployments are more than just portlets. They usually include at least a theme and typically at least a hook or two.

JSR 286 reflects the least common denominator for what the portal vendors could agree to at the time of it's publication five years ago. Each portal vendor at the time and even those in existence today offer extensions that go beyond the 286 standard to be able to customize the environment well beyond what the standard allowed for.

Thinking that delivering only 286-compatible portlets is the answer to the world's portal problems is, IMHO, totally misguided.
Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 19, 2013 5:55 AM
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Florencia Gadea

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Well, at least we could add another way to fail:

* Developing JSR286 compatible portlets.

Thanks for your contribution Ching.
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 19, 2013 12:37 PM
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Jack Bakker

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can't please everyone so you have to

on that note ; sure is code outside here in Canada
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 21, 2013 2:08 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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That's actually not a way for a developer to fail but more of a way for a plugin to fail. I think we actually made a distinction before.
Jelmer Kuperus
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 24, 2013 10:16 AM
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Jelmer Kuperus

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I disagree that sticking to the spec is a surefire way to fail and with some of the reasons people have brought up against it.

You can extract away many of the liferay specific details behind a set of interfaces. For instance you might have a UserService interface that manages users, Then have a Liferay, JetSpeed and jboss implementation.

If you need things like sharing code between different portlet wars then nothing is stopping you from exposing your services as rest / soap / rmi / thrift etc services

If you want your portlet to be porttable across different containers you can get a long way without having to reinvent the wheel.

Your code will also be much easier to test. Liferay was not designed with testability in mind (at all!) which makes it very difficult to deliver high quality solutions based on it. And you no longer have to worry about upgrading to a new version of liferay, because the jsr standards are stable whereas Liferay basically doesn't give a damn about being backwards compatible

Sure there are trade off's and there is no right solution for every project type. But sticking with just jsr286 might be a more than ok solution in many cases imho!
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 24, 2013 2:45 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Liferay basically doesn't give a damn about being backwards compatible


I think this is only partially true. The framework doesn't change too much and doesn't contain too many bugs. It's the portlets that's the main problem with compatibility and quality in liferay. Delete the ones you really don't need and modify the ones you want to keep to your requirement and you'll have a stable system.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
June 22, 2013 6:29 PM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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David H Nebinger:
Personally I advocate using Vaadin instead of jsp/struts


Practically Liferay is depending on jsp/struts instead of Vaadin.
See Liferay source: https://github.com/liferay/liferay-portal/blob/master/portal-web/docroot/WEB-INF/struts-config.xml

At my first message to Florencia Gadea here, I suggested plugin developers starting from making independent portlets.
Ching:
Struts2 portlet plugin follows JSR286 standard, if you follows its examples, you can make one portlet to run Liferay, eXo, GateIn, Jetspeed, Pluto, uPortal.
With the basic knowledge of struts2 portlet, you will have more confidence of developing more advanced Liferay or other portals.


David H Nebinger, please do not take my above feedback as troll or flame bait. I feel that developers and end users should have their freedoms of choices.


Hitoshi Ozawa:
I've already invested too much time on liferay that I can't have liferay fail.

Hi, Hitoshi Ozawa,
Similarly I am a gambler at Macau casinos but I am different from you. It is a safe bet that I don't put all my chips on one portal.


Hi, Jelmer Kuperus,
Karōshi is also suitable for Hong Kongers and Taiwanese:


Hi, Jack Bakker,
Me too, I enjoy sun of a beach.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 25, 2013 4:10 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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It is a safe bet that I don't put all my chips on one portal.


We're not either. We have a good relationship with Redhat with our president has given talk at their conference. In fact, we just installed their portal at one site. One of our member is now working at Redhat Japan too. :-)

We also have several sites with Alfresco up and running and we're doing pretty well with them too.

I'm trying to create an open source market in Japan so I'm really trying to get ALL open source projects successful and not just one.

Well, not just open source really. We handle several commercial portals and cms' too.

All in all, I have to say following JSR286 doesn't make too much sense because most portals don't support it and when they do, each portal have their additional "extras" to make it meaningless to just stick with the specification.

Similarly I am a gambler at Macau casinos


Well, I really don't gamble. I take "little" risk as I can. :-)
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
June 24, 2013 5:08 AM
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David H Nebinger

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Ching Ice-creaming:
David H Nebinger:
Personally I advocate using Vaadin instead of jsp/struts


Practically Liferay is depending on jsp/struts instead of Vaadin.


I surely know what Liferay portlets are based on, but that is beside the point.

Liferay has different requirements than most other developers, so they take the road that meets their requirements, and that means jsp/struts.

I have different requirements:
1. Short dev cycles, releases in days or weeks, not months or years.
2. Team of java devs, not js/ajax experts, but projects require responsiveness of a full Ajax solution.

For these reasons vaadin is the best choice for my team.

I would never base my tool choice on what Liferay uses. Just because they use a push mower to cut their lawn, I will still keep my riding lawn mower to cut mine.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 21, 2013 2:21 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Hi Ching,

Can read the following thread too.
http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/22851073

Before you create a software, should provide the answers to the following questions. I just love giving business advices too. :-)
1. What exactly are you trying to sell?
2. Who will be the target customers of the software
3. Why would they want to buy it
4. How are you going to reach your potential customers? (who is the sales contact - if you don't have any, chances are very low that you'll be able to sell)
5. Where are you going to sell it? What's the business custom there? (If you don't know the business customs, you really should learn before you offend people)
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 22, 2013 8:26 AM
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Ching Ice-creaming

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To Hitoshi Ozawa

1. I have read your story http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/22851073
2. I do not disuss your five questions at public forum here. Some business tricks is mysterious. I have your email and I tell you privately.

I recommend this blog http://www.liferay.com/web/paul.hinz/blog/-/blogs/open-source%3A-the-future-or-a-trend- There is many wisdom of words inside, for examples:
"Vendors also design aggressively to lock customers onto their platform to ensure long term support revenue and to ensure a foothold for other product sales. "
"Instead major vendors have looked to add features that either lock customers into their platforms or push product-chaining strategies."
"Open source must also support industry, defacto standards and simplify integration/interoperability or again they will not grow in popularity. This allows customers a broader capability to fight vendor lock in. "

HItsohi Ozawa,
As above blog saying: "This allows customers a broader capability to fight vendor lock in"
Actually I am promoting Apache Struts programming to all plugin developers because eveyone can write one single struts2 portlet running on different portals. Inventing one wheel to fit all Liferay, eXo, uPortal, Jetspeed, GateIn, blah, blah, blah, blah.... ... to fight GateIn lock-in, Jetspeed lock-in, uPortal lock-in, eXo lock-in... and ??????? lock-in

Actually I am retired and I become retarded, Please give me time to write an email about your five questions

Ching
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 22, 2013 12:23 PM
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David H Nebinger

Rank: Liferay Legend

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Join Date: September 1, 2006

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Ching Ice-creaming:
Actually I am promoting Apache Struts programming to all plugin developers because eveyone can write one single struts2 portlet running on different portals. Inventing one wheel to fit all Liferay, eXo, uPortal, Jetspeed, GateIn, blah, blah, blah, blah.... ... to fight GateIn lock-in, Jetspeed lock-in, uPortal lock-in, eXo lock-in... and ??????? lock-in


Again, this is not very practical. As I said before, each portal has their own extensions to access environment-specific stuff. Want to get at the user portrait for example? All of the jsp/struts stuff in the world is not going to get you there, you have to invoke portal-specific extensions to access the data. How about showing some web content from the CMS? Again, the same thing. JSR-286 is not the be-all and end-all, it's just a foundation to build from. To get your portlets really snappy, you're going to add JS/AJAX, hooks into the portal environments, theming considerations, etc.

Personally I advocate using Vaadin instead of jsp/struts. While you're trying to get all of your javascript, AJAX, dom synchronization stuff working, I've finished my snazzy Vaadin portlet and have gone home for the day...
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 22, 2013 5:02 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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each portal has their own extensions to access environment-specific stuff.


Agree with David on this. Also, think about the "why" you'll want to make it just stick to the standard. I think it's because to lower cost to move to a different environment. However, the cost to create a portlet is very low nowadays that it actually costs more to write a JSR286 alone portlet. Calculate the cost of making a portlet and projected sales. If you are going to write a simple portlet to sell as a hobby at Marketplace, you may not be able to charge for support so that may actually eat up for your time too.

I like to calculate software in terms of time instead of something like license fee and subscription fee. By time, I mean the time it takes to develop and to maintain/support it. For example, it you're able to sell a software for $100, it seems that you've done really well. However, it you think in terms of time, if it is possible to spend the time to develop the software in something else that can result to sell of $150, you've really lost a $50.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 22, 2013 5:18 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Actually I am retired and I become retarded,


Well, almost the same here. Enjoying my third business life now. It's not in my habit to just sit in my home or at a beach. That's actually more stressful for me - tried it and didn't work out. I tell people that they should plan their life so they can retire by the time they reach 40 if they desire to. :-)

Take risk, work hard, don't follow other people's tracks. Thank God for giving opportunities and people around you for helping to realize on that opportunity.
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 22, 2013 6:50 PM
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Jack Bakker

Rank: Liferay Master

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Uhmmm.. I like Struts2 a lot ; but also MVCPortlet and Vaadin... and also having developers with the right expertise ; and I like the beach because my kids do.

Enjoy and thanks all. Good night.
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 23, 2013 2:01 PM
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Jack Bakker

Rank: Liferay Master

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there some community 'rap' threads like this one and a previously notable to me 'liferay sucks' that to me has created some interesting 'open' dialogue, more wrt to focus on people

there is a seemingly successful LMS I researched recently where in blog they adverstised something like : jerks don't stay here long ; I like that ; my point is +1 to smart/openHonest
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 23, 2013 9:48 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Jack, good point!

When we evaluate something and we only outline a good points, people aren't going to take it. Even in the Gartner reports, there's a strong point and weak points.

There, also, has to be some conflicts sometime to spice up the forum once in a while to make things interesting. It's especially true in something like these forum when most of the questions begins to get repetitious and people begins to lose interest. There's some social difference and there's also a problem with IT people taking everything too seriously - nobody is going to stop using liferay because someone posted something on this thread.

We need more people talking about "liferay" - it's not sufficient to have limited liferay.com employees sending several messages now and then. As the saying goes, "It better to be hated than to be forgottten".

I've already invested too much time on liferay that I can't have liferay fail.
Jelmer Kuperus
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 24, 2013 9:53 AM
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Jelmer Kuperus

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Well you're from the country that invented Karōshi (過労死)

I'll take that beach side property thank you emoticon
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 24, 2013 6:33 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

Rank: Liferay Legend

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I used to life in Azabu which is like Hollywood and Washington DC wrapped into one. Former president Bush came to a The Iikura Guest House, which is just few blocks from where I lived, when he came to Japan to talk with the former prime minister of Japan. I used to jog around the Imperial Palace every morning before going to work.
It used to be nice and quiet but unfortunately, it began to become crowded with people when public transportation became better when they built Roppongi Hills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roppongi_Hills). So I just decided to rent out my condo room and moved to Kamakura.

We have beaches in Kamakura (http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3109.html) and Great Buddha too (http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2166.html).
President Obama came here when he visited Japan and this is where he ate the macha (green tea) ice cream which he associates often with Japan.

The person who built my house used to be a real tea ceremony teacher so I actually have a real tea room in my house; unfortunately, I don't practice tea ceremony so I'm just using as a storage.

You can sit on a beach or go hiking for couple of days but I'm really sure that you'll get tired out with boredom.

BTW, I created a Facebook account last week. If interested, please look me up. I'm having trouble finding all the people.

FYI,

Well you're from the country that invented Karōshi (過労死)


I think there's actually more death from suicide than from karoshi in Japan. People nowadays don't commit "harakiri" for failure, but there sure are many trains stopping because of "human accidents" here. Japan don't have a caste system as is in India but there's a hierarchical system and people have to know your own position and the position of other people. The practice of "一見さんお断り" which means "first time visitors are unwelcomed" ("people without introduction from a person who is already within the group are unwelcomed") is common too to keep out people who are not socially acceptable to the group.