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Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 6:22 AM
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Florencia Gadea

Rank: Regular Member

Posts: 159

Join Date: March 27, 2012

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jelmer kuperus:
ehhh duuhh...

I think you mist the point that like the points in your original post. These are all untrue and sure ways to fail.


Yes, you are right, but in my post I wrote about silly and obvious ways to fail, being the developer's fault in most cases. Like you can't expect to understand something if you don't read the documentation. But backwards compatibility should be expected.
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 6:32 AM
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David H Nebinger

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 6267

Join Date: September 1, 2006

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Florencia Gadea:
But backwards compatibility should be expected.


Then you are expecting your own failure.

Seriously, Liferay has nailed me time and again w/ the changes, many of them significant. For example, Liferay 4 was based on prototype.js, Liferay 5 on jQuery, and Liferay 6 on AUI. I have no idea what Liferay 7 will be built on, but there certainly was no 'backwards compatibility' baked into the later releases.

If you expect backwards compatibility, you are expecting your own failure.
Florencia Gadea
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 6:42 AM
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Florencia Gadea

Rank: Regular Member

Posts: 159

Join Date: March 27, 2012

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I agree, David, they have nailed me too. I'm not expecting it, I'm just saying it "should be". I have worked with many other frameworks that do have backwards compatibility, so it is not naive for a beginner to expect it. As I said to jelmer, I wrote about obvious ways to fail.

Anyway, I will add your suggestions to the article guys, because after all, they are ways to fail. Thanks!
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 7:42 AM
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Ching Ice-creaming

Rank: Junior Member

Posts: 31

Join Date: March 2, 2013

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Wow, Jelmer Kuperus join this discussion.
There is four non-staff (not stuff) members I trace their messages: Juan Gonzalez P, Jelmer Kuperus, Hitoshi Ozawa, and David H Nebinger

Hey Jelmer Kuperus,
I like your comment about "Stockholm syndrome" last year. Your words of wisdoms free my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHlBqdFIr5Q
It drives me to make independent portlets.

David H Nebinger is right that Liferay has changed its game rules. But I don't mind any change of game rules. I have just wished Liferay improving our developers' lifeway easier.

Ching
David H Nebinger
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 12:18 PM
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David H Nebinger

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 6267

Join Date: September 1, 2006

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There's another one to add from this thread: http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/2013318

(x) Feel free to replace Liferay tables/entities with your own, especially if you don't understand the data model. It won't cause chaos or limit your ability to handle future upgrades, so have at it!
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 12:37 PM
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Jack Bakker

Rank: Liferay Master

Posts: 511

Join Date: January 3, 2010

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interesting enough initial premise to put in the negative ideas which have positive counterparts

haven't found this thread to be that useful though, like that ever sensational "liferay sucks" thread

are we building or breaking ; you choose
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 1:29 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 7990

Join Date: March 23, 2010

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Agree with Jack on this point. As Florencia mentioned, her initial points were on what liferay users shouldn't do and not about liferay software itself.

Don't take Jelmer's complaints too seriously because it's more like he's "married" to liferay. He's always complaining about it but it seems he can't live without it either - it's just like a husband complaining about his wife but not seriously thinking about divorce. emoticon
Jelmer Kuperus
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 1:41 PM
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Jelmer Kuperus

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 1190

Join Date: March 10, 2010

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Don't take Jelmer's complaints too seriously because it's more like he's "married" to liferay. He's always complaining about it but it seems he can't live without it either


No I got a divorce. I haven't done any Liferay development in over 6 months. Using Liferay was a very frustrating experience. At the end of the learning curve there's not pot of gold just disillusionment. I was "married" to liferay because I was forced to use it on a project i was stuck on
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 2:29 PM
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Jack Bakker

Rank: Liferay Master

Posts: 511

Join Date: January 3, 2010

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I dev over Liferay, but also develop over other ; depends on match of need with appropriate solution

glad there are many options out there and people building things to improve ; for enterprise with many public and private facing needs, I like Liferay a lot
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 5, 2013 9:32 PM
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Ching Ice-creaming

Rank: Junior Member

Posts: 31

Join Date: March 2, 2013

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1. Red pill or blue pill ? you choose
Hi, Jack Bakker, you are funny. "There are only two things I can't stand in this world. Portals which are intolerant of other portals' cultures... and the Dutch."

2. Florencia Gadea is clever to build up the ten commandments out of here. These commandments help newbies understand Liferay and let Liferay staff (not stuff) to understand its users.
As Steve say: "We are not perfect, Portals are not perfect, We want to make our users happy" http://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Were-not-perfect.jpg
Are they building or breaking user relationships ? you choose.

3. Hitoshi Ozawa is right that "This isn't a support forum like Microsoft support forum. Users who are there already paid Microsoft for their products."
I don't expect any help of public forum, because I don't pay. All I wanna have some fun here only.

4. It is not easy being a small business, it is not easy to run a 350 staff (not stuff) company: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vZdOPjMxGcY
I know there is many JEDI masters inside Liferay. They are busy to lead their teams to struggle for survival of the Portal Wars
Please understand that they don't have much time to take care of free public forum.
Let me advertise Liferay formal training http://www.liferay.com/services/training. Paying school fee does not only help the company, but also help learners themselves to handle Liferay quicker. .


Jack Bakker:
interesting enough initial premise to put in the negative ideas which have positive counterparts

haven't found this thread to be that useful though, like that ever sensational "liferay sucks" thread

are we building or breaking ; you choose
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 6, 2013 8:45 AM
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Jack Bakker

Rank: Liferay Master

Posts: 511

Join Date: January 3, 2010

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1. while I might say I take both pills, I reject the premise and take neither

2. yes I think it is great when people contribute ; Florencia's intent was for such

3. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy

4. choosing something real to contribute will bring success, as for what is real, see #1 above
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 6, 2013 4:06 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 7990

Join Date: March 23, 2010

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jelmer, if you got "divorced", why are you still here hanging around?

I think liferay.com isn't going to change because they're satisifed with the way they are now (they seems to be doing very good), and I think some of us are satisified with the situation we are in now too.

Also, there's now a patchers community at github. Instead of sending patches to liferay.com jira, just send a patch request to the patchers community at github. You can even create your own fork easily with you patches.

https://www.lcepatchers.org/

https://github.com/Liferay-Patchers-Community/
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 14, 2013 4:12 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 7990

Join Date: March 23, 2010

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4. It is not easy being a small business, it is not easy to run a 350 staff (not stuff) company: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vZdOPjMxGcY
I know there is many JEDI masters inside Liferay. They are busy to lead their teams to struggle for survival of the Portal Wars
Please understand that they don't have much time to take care of free public forum.


Now this makes it sound like people posting to this forum have lot of free time left over. I can assure you that this is not true. I'm definitely sure about some people at liferay with more time then we do - just sitting waiting for somebody to call them. I have 2 on-going projects, 3 pre-sales, writing articles for a online magazine, creating localized version of liferay and portlets, writing a research paper, doing presentations, involved in other OSS projects, etc...

BTW, there's no more "JEDI masters". The names have been changed.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 14, 2013 10:09 PM
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Ching Ice-creaming

Rank: Junior Member

Posts: 31

Join Date: March 2, 2013

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Hitoshi Ozawa,

1. I have not worked with any Liferay project since 2010. You are right that its game rules have changed "No more youngling, padawan, master at forum".

2. It is embarrasing for me to be exposed by you. To be honest, I wish to make money from Liferay. That's why I try to please Liferay insiders.

3. You are more than a developer. You see through the teams and you dare say their operations. Liferay should pay you consulting fees. emoticon

4. Let me continue to defend insiders (cause they may be my future benefit$)
As you say "just sitting waiting for somebody to call them. I have 2 on-going projects, 3 pre-sales, writing articles for a online magazine, creating localized version of liferay and portlets, writing a research paper, doing presentations, involved in other OSS projects, etc..."
All of them is division of labour. They are running a company, not just a software. Even though somebody just sitting, perhaps he is thinking of a big plan.

emoticon

Ching
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 1:11 AM
Answer

Hitoshi Ozawa

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 7990

Join Date: March 23, 2010

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They are running a company, not just a software. Even though somebody just sitting, perhaps he is thinking of a big plan.


You're contracting yourself. A company need to execute and not just plan - they have to meet a goal within a determined time period because employees, taxes, utility bills need to be paid. I'm doing all these because I work for a company, and we do have a plan that needs to be executed to get expected results. Just sitting and planning something big is a sure sign of a company that's going to fail. Users' aren't that stupid to associate with a company that's all talks and no action - nobody likes to be associated with a loser.

Maybe, this is just a cultural difference. As is written in an article below in "Victim identity" section, the Japanese society don't take failure lightly. An organization that not capable of showing any result within 3 months is identified as a "failure", and we don't associate with them - never. Think while doing - I think this is the fundamental rule of a company. I think founders of Liferay.com has been doing this, but I'm getting a little bit worried because I'm beginning to see "that's not my responsibility" altitutude. I think many Japanese people were attracted to Liferay after seeing Bryant going through liferay source code when asked a question when he first gave a talk here. If he'd said that he's a president of a company and didn't know or had time to be concerned about a program, most of the people would have lost interest.

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/japan.html

2. It is embarrasing for me to be exposed by you. To be honest, I wish to make money from Liferay. That's why I try to please Liferay insiders.


Liferay.com is still a small company with unforeseen future. Trying to please insiders instead of trying to get them to satisfy users is really doing the company more harm. I think Gartner report just summerized what I've been saying.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 7:22 AM
Answer

Ching Ice-creaming

Rank: Junior Member

Posts: 31

Join Date: March 2, 2013

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Hitoshi Ozawa,

Hitoshi Ozawa:
You're contracting yourself.

1. Do you mean "You're contradicting yourself" ?

2. You know, I've learned something today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3sX3aD6GSM
I grew in British colony, Hong Kong. I don't realize my humour style messages to get such a serious reply. There is much food for thought in your message. I am really appreciated.

Jack Bakker should understand my previous self-deprecating messages. (because Dutch humor is much more unDutchable than British humour).

3. Hitoshi Ozawa, I saw you writing thousands messages to support here and gave many strict advices to Liferay. You are doing all this for a better Liferay and for its own good.
I am different from you. Now I am a WAR profiteer who make portlet.wars to watch their portal wars. I have just pleased every party: insiders, outsiders, customers and business partners, to get my jobs done, to get money from portals.

4. As an outsider, you unleash values of Liferay very well. However I must continue to defend the insiders. I knew many of them working so hard.

And I don't understand and I don't agree the following sentence:
"There is more value outside of the company being waited to be unleashed than there is inside"
Reference: http://www.theserverside.com/news/2240167505/Liferay-CEO-says-people-are-the-companys-strength


Ching
Jack Bakker
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 8:31 AM
Answer

Jack Bakker

Rank: Liferay Master

Posts: 511

Join Date: January 3, 2010

Recent Posts

There is plenty of room for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 17, 2013 9:02 PM
Answer

Hitoshi Ozawa

Rank: Liferay Legend

Posts: 7990

Join Date: March 23, 2010

Recent Posts

1. Do you mean "You're contradicting yourself" ?


Right. emoticon
I have to get a research paper out today on agile development so I'm really deprived of sleep.

I knew many of them working so hard.


No doubt about that. Liferay is an excellent software because of all who have worked on it. I won't be so demanding if I thought I was talking to a wall. emoticon
I'm trying to keep my demands just so that I'll be able to get them without breaking social ties.

There is more value outside of the company being waited to be unleashed than there is inside


I think Brian Chan expressed this pretty well when he explained in one of the video why he made Liferay open source. If a company is going to do everything inside, there's no reason to make it open source and Liferay.com will likely lose because competitors such as IBM and MS are all very large companies with many more programmers and other people assigned to a developing and selling a product. David wasn't able to defeat goliath by fighting with armour and shield. If Liferay is going to survive in the portal market, it has to have a different development and marketing tactic. Just giving your "family" armour and shield and telling them to go fight is leading them to slaughter.

I think the quote actually means people shouldn't be classified as being "inside" or being "outside" but more of as those who can actually offers tangible results to those who don't.

For example, there's already many sns and cms software in Japan at a very reasonable price and very high quality. There'll be no benefit of liferay if it wasn't open source. Open source to me is just a development and marketing scheme where each member benefits from using "outside" resources. Put 20% in and get 80% back. To Liferay.com, everybody not with the company is "outside" but to me, Liferay.com and people like Jack, David, and Juan are all "outside".

If you're really thinking about liferay's survival, it'll probably be better trying to please more parties to join instead just pleasing current internal parties. Liferay needs to "grow", not retain the current status.

You are doing all this for a better Liferay and for its own good.


Well, for my own good. I need Liferay.com to succeed for me to succeed. I'm just an ordinary person and not a saint. emoticon
I think there are other members here in a similar position.

BTW, some users have noted how I reply to a post has changed since the time I started. I'm no longer giving direct answers too much. This is because users who finds a direct answer would be able to finish his/her task but won't be learning liferay. We really need more people who know liferay over people who's just using liferay to finish an assigned task because they would more tend to become part of the community.
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 18, 2013 9:32 AM
Answer

Ching Ice-creaming

Rank: Junior Member

Posts: 31

Join Date: March 2, 2013

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Jack Bakker:
There is plenty of room for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes.


http://www.political-humor.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/gods-creatures.jpg
Ha, ha, Jack Bakker, I am hungry now, where is the restaurant ?


Hitoshi Ozawa,
I am busy at this moment, let me digest your messages and reply to you later.

By the way, I post an oldies oldies but goodies to every insiders and outsiders, "Anyone can code"
http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/22752693

Ching
Ching Ice-creaming
RE: 10 ways to fail as a Liferay plugin developer
March 18, 2013 6:24 PM
Answer

Ching Ice-creaming

Rank: Junior Member

Posts: 31

Join Date: March 2, 2013

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To Florencia Gadea and all plugin developers,

I must thanks Jelmer Kuperus for his words of wisdoms "Stockholm syndrome". Just two words inspire me to seek my way to make independent portlets

I highly recommend an open source Apache Struts2 http://struts.apache.org (Maybe Spring MVC can do the same generic portlets but I don't know it.)

I figure out my way to request Liferay to improve its products: Just compare, no complain
I prove its problem by struts2 portlet to compare with its competitors
http://code.google.com/p/jasperrocks/wiki/Problems#Liferay

For viewpoint of customers, this is the advantages if portal vendors following JSR286 standard:
1. Outside developers will be happy for avoiding SDK lock-in provided by vendors.
2. Customers will be happy for avoiding vendor lock-in.
3. We shall be happy to watch portal vendors playing a fair game.

Hitoshi Ozawa is demanding for Liferay its own good because it is a portals war.

Now I am busy with the comparison of the new beta eXo Platform 4.0 with Liferay 6.20
Talk to Hitoshi Ozawa later.

Ching
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