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Mika Koivisto
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 6, 2012 11:21 AM
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Mika Koivisto

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What you are describing can and should be solved with good javadocs and code samples. Only core engineers and contributors should need to read and understand the code behind the API.
David H Nebinger
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 6, 2012 11:47 AM
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David H Nebinger

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Mika Koivisto:
What you are describing can and should be solved with good javadocs and code samples. Only core engineers and contributors should need to read and understand the code behind the API.


That's the rub, though. Since API documentation is sometimes missing, sometimes incomplete, and sometimes lack good code samples, the code is the only source for such information.

And that's a really narrow view of who should be in the source code. Anyone doing 3rd party integration of custom authentication tools, CMS systems, etc., also would have legitimate needs to be in the source in order to figure out the best and cleanest way to do the integration. There are other viable use cases for folks who need to understand how the code actually works that are neither core engineers nor contributors.

I demand my developers include javadoc for all public and protected classes, members, and methods. It ensures that we at least have some documentation for the internals and allows new developers added to the team to get up to speed a lot quicker.

If the Liferay shared the same view, the arguments about missing documentation would be significantly reduced.
David H Nebinger
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 6, 2012 11:54 AM
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David H Nebinger

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Mika Koivisto:
What you are describing can and should be solved with good javadocs and code samples. Only core engineers and contributors should need to read and understand the code behind the API.


I defy you to find anywhere, in any of the liferay.com documentation, forum, javadocs, etc. an indication of what can and cannot be passed for the open id in the call to UserLocalServiceUtil.addUser().

No where will you see that it cannot be null. If you pass null you get a totally unhelpful stack trace with an NPE. Digging into the code to find the NPE is the only way to identify that the open id cannot be null, that some value (even an empty string) is required.

That's just a single example. I'm sure all of us here on the forum can pull up examples from our past where we had to dig into the code itself to solve a problem because there was just no other documentation to cover it.
Mika Koivisto
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 6, 2012 12:05 PM
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Mika Koivisto

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I do agree with you that developers should include javadoc and even comments in all non trivial code but if you've ever contributed any code with all that you usually see all that stripped away in a source formatting commit because it wasn't grammatically correct or something. Large number of Liferay engineers are non native English speakers so all javadocs are reviewed by our documentation team for good grammar and correctness that's why they are slowly added. The whole Liferay code base follows certain patterns in formatting and naming and once you learn those it's really easy to read and find code. For a newbie in Liferay it's not so easy so that's why having good api documentation with code samples is what I think we should concentrate our efforts in. Most people used to closed source products don't even want to read the source code.

Your example is in my opinion a bug. If blank is accepted but null causes a nullpointer then someone hasn't done their parameter checking.
Andew Jardine
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 6, 2012 1:28 PM
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Andew Jardine

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I once saw an interview with Eminem after one of his album releases. The interviewer asked him how he felt about a crap ton of parents saying that he should be jailed for his lyrics and how offensive they felt they were etc. I thought his answer was awesome. He said --

"You don't like what I have to say? Don't listen. That's your choice."

... I think that same philosophy can be carried on here. You don't like Liferay, great, work with something else. Personally, I'd like to see the portal framework that Bill has built that is better.

Unfortuantely, in my career I have nearly always inheritted someone elses sh*t. From what I have seen, it's rarely the product that is crap but rather some sad developers interpretation of it that makes it difficult to use and frustrating.
Johan de jong
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 6, 2012 2:00 PM
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Johan de jong

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LOL, i was thinking about liferay the same some months ago.

But i didn't give up, and today i think it is the only portal/webserverbase that is can do anything and everything.

IT IS FREAKING AWESOME !!

AND DO NOT START ABOUT JOOMLA!

Joomla is hacked every 2 weeks and have you ever seen their code?
ever tried to discover their enormous amount of php classes?
ever tried to install a plugin and had your whole installation wrecked?
ever tried to install a plugin and then found out that all security within the site has been overruled?
pfff....

I create PHP portlets within minutes that use 40% Liferay functionality and 60% PHP. i dont have do bother about useraccounts, rights, security or that my system gets hacked by a PHP leakage.
sheela mk
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 6, 2012 11:56 PM
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sheela mk

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emoticonemoticonWhere is Bill Hillstonemoticonemoticon
MICHAIL MOUDATSOS
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 12:43 AM
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MICHAIL MOUDATSOS

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Mika Koivisto:
if you've ever contributed any code with all that you usually see all that stripped away in a source formatting commit because it wasn't grammatically correct or something. Large number of Liferay engineers are non native English speakers so all javadocs are reviewed by our documentation team for good grammar and correctness that's why they are slowly added.
Hmmm! I always thought (and excuse me if it sounds nasty but this is the real world) that comments were stripped out on purpose, in order to enhance a bit the need to turn to EE suport, etc. Well, these guys must be compensated somehow for their hard work, don't they? So, it is good to hear that there is indeed another more practical than commercial reason for this. However, my thoughts still hold for in-code comments. I can't think for a more fitting explanation - as I said before this is the real world!
Mazhar Alam
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 1:46 AM
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Mazhar Alam

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Yaa..exactly..where is BILL..???
Aad Nales
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 2:46 AM
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Aad Nales

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David H Nebinger:

I defy you to find anywhere, in any of the liferay.com documentation, forum, javadocs, etc. an indication of what can and cannot be passed for the open id in the call to UserLocalServiceUtil.addUser()..


Not that i will defy you! I completely agree that the lack of API documentation is making the learning curve not just steep but almost unsurmountable. I am not talking about using Liferay but programming on top of it. What can we do as a community to improve this? I really think that the we need to step up the efforts from "outside" programmers to improve the quality. Earlier in the thread i already referred to our efforts to improve the quality of Liferay CE with the start of a patchers community. How do we get better API documentation? Is there a way to share the burden and make it worth our while for all?
David H Nebinger
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 5:17 AM
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David H Nebinger

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MICHAIL MOUDATSOS:
Mika Koivisto:
if you've ever contributed any code with all that you usually see all that stripped away in a source formatting commit because it wasn't grammatically correct or something. Large number of Liferay engineers are non native English speakers so all javadocs are reviewed by our documentation team for good grammar and correctness that's why they are slowly added.
Hmmm! I always thought (and excuse me if it sounds nasty but this is the real world) that comments were stripped out on purpose, in order to enhance a bit the need to turn to EE suport, etc. Well, these guys must be compensated somehow for their hard work, don't they? So, it is good to hear that there is indeed another more practical than commercial reason for this. However, my thoughts still hold for in-code comments. I can't think for a more fitting explanation - as I said before this is the real world!


I thought that, too, until we got EE and could see in the EE source that there is little if any javadoc there, too.
David H Nebinger
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 5:18 AM
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David H Nebinger

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Mazhar Alam:
Yaa..exactly..where is BILL..???


Bill was a troll. We've fed him, so now he'll lie in wait for another day when he can start another firestorm...
MICHAIL MOUDATSOS
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 5:39 AM
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MICHAIL MOUDATSOS

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David H Nebinger:
I thought that, too, until we got EE and could see in the EE source that there is little if any javadoc there, too.

I see...
Well, one can still argue that they have in-line comments etc, kept for their core development team, but since an EE license includes (if I'm not mistaken) consulting and so on, the only good reason I could think of is to prevent from comments leaking out to community (which would in turn, compromise the whole "keep those for us, so we are needed" idea...). Anyway, that's why we all post day by day; in order to fill bit by bit, all the missing stuff one could need. emoticon (Am I not inspiring? emoticon )
Sampsa Sohlman
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 8:05 AM
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Sampsa Sohlman

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Mazhar Alam:
Yaa..exactly..where is BILL..???


He got some answers for sure and I bet he had read this messages emoticon May be he was just being troll, frustrating of something of LR. Anyway good discussion and he still can join.

Negative comments are usually better are more beneficial than good ones, like when you are partisipating scum's retrospective emoticon
Mika Koivisto
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 7, 2012 11:23 AM
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Mika Koivisto

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I can assure you there's no secret source code that is more commented than the CE or EE code.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 10, 2012 3:18 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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I can assure you there's no secret source code that is more commented than the CE or EE code.


From the looks of it, I don't think there is either. From the information I've seen, EE still have some bugs when it is released but
Liferay.com is providing patches afterwards.

I think what developers wants is more documentations intact regardless of the grammerical quality.
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 10, 2012 3:22 PM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Well, these guys must be compensated somehow for their hard work, don't they?


Agree on this. This is a off topic, but that's why I don't think we should be answering to questions pertaining only to EE here because that'll erode their business. Just stick with CE questions here and let liferay.com sell their support to EE users. They're giving us a good software to use, so at least let them do their business.
Danny Stevens
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 10, 2012 10:11 PM
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Danny Stevens

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The question of in depth javadoc is the biggest issue that Bill raised.

I would suggest comparing the javadoc for java itself with that of Liferay.

For developers to work with an API it is never enough to understand it in general, it has to be understood in detail. The evidence that this is true is the number of discussions in the liferay community where people are asking how to do things and a Liferay engineer answers with "well of course you use xxxxUtil.methodzzzz()" as if the questioner had any way to know this without being told.

At the very least the service layer APIs should have contract documentation for all method signiatures. At best they would also have some use case documentation. The javadoc can have links to extended documentation on this site if really needed but package layer documentation in javadoc would be better. The code for 6.1 service layer does show some bare minimum documentation, which is excellent. However it does not tend to provide valid ranges for parameters or use cases that would clarify. For example com.liferay.portal.service.UserLocalServiceUtil.dynamicQuery(DynamicQuery, int, int, OrderByComparator). Why is this part of the User service? Can the query only be about users? Are only user records returned? Can the OrderByComparator be null (this is given in the javadoc, the answer is yes)? Can you specify the upper and lower bound to be "give me everything"? How would you do that?

Where there is bad grammar I would rather you just place a flag in the javadoc that will bring someone to eventually fix it up and leave the untidy javadoc in place. It will be better than no javadoc at all.

As for the need of only core engineers to know about deeper things, that may be true in most cases, but many of us need to write utilities. For example I am writing a portal instance export/import system so that we can split a monolithic liferay with over 80 instances into four portals with 20 instances, all in shards. To do this I have to understand the counter services which has proved to be quite difficult. See http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/16004741
Hitoshi Ozawa
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 12, 2012 5:41 AM
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Hitoshi Ozawa

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Liferay also provides development training and consulting services as well.

I'm sure you're not working for free and if you're not providing your software source code to the public, I don't really think you have a valid point to complain about. If you don't want to use your own time to study by yourself, pay for education. I haven't heard too much about private universities not providing their education for free.
jj olla
RE: Liferay sucks!!
September 12, 2012 9:24 AM
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jj olla

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Join Date: September 12, 2012

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Hitoshi Ozawa:
I haven't heard too much about private universities not providing their education for free.


Actually, there are many big name universities offering free courses, including from MIT, Harvard, Berkely, Stanford :
http://ocw.mit.edu , http://edx.org , http://coursera.org , just to get you started

The point about lack of documentation is valid. It is not fair to claim it is "open source" if you are going to obfuscate the code before you put it out. Although obviously not at this extreme, I am sure Liferay.com is conscious that their code is sufficiently difficult to read that the EE support becomes the only way forward.

This is the fundamental prob with "Community Editions" .. when comparing to proper .org contributions.
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